Honestly? It has been for ages and ages.
In 1989 a grown-ass grad student at our flagship state university tried to get my 14 year old friend to visit him downstate. (She told me all of this via a handwritten letter, mind you, but she was communicating with this creep - who wouldnāt admit his actual age - via an early text only messaging system.)
I remember the 1990s as a weird free for all, but also very gate-keepery. Oh, and those chat rooms/IMs out of nowhere were justā¦ not even a thin veneer of ānormal people doing normal things.ā (Iām OK with that, but letās not pretend).
The 2005-2010 era was all about collaboration (wikis) and forums and LORD ALMIGHTY, that almost always ended as a shitshow. Highlights from my memories of one wiki mashup:
- One kid from Slovakia faked his own online death, came back a month later and held a memorial for himself under the guise of a real-life friend of the kid. No one was buying it, and he lost his shit over the lack of mourning. It was cringe, but people were pretty mean about it.
- Another kid from Louisiana (if you believed his bio he was 11 and lived in a trailer park) was attacked by two adult men for ātrying to score contribution pointsā on the wikiā¦ by adding valid information to the wiki.
-An unhinged person in the Philippines threatened me with death, violence, and the destruction of generations worth of my family. That threat was delivered with the added terror-inducing information that her husband was a ālecturer at the university.ā
-One of the site adminās/owners (a Russian dude who was the equivalent of Redditās Spez), banned a guyā¦ this is so stupid and complexā¦ mainly stupidā¦ I feel stupid just typing this out. It was Russian Spezās birthday and a few people on the forum wished him a happy birthday. (Myself included. I mean, have a nice b-day dude. Typing costs me nothing and maybe itāll dislodge whateverās up your butt.) Another guy on the forum (letās call him Derf) called us birthday-wishers āsuck asses.ā Whatever. Anyway, Russian Spez freaked right the fuck out, banned Derf, and started whining in broken English about why itās unfair that we āthink itās OK that people call him suck ass.ā And although Iām generally a nice person, I took this opportunity to call Russian Spez a thin skinned moron. (Seriously - Iām a 30 something woman and Iām not pitching fits over a childish taunt, but you are? And it wasnāt even directed at you? To his credit, Russian Spez didnāt ban me.)
-Was creeped on like itās 1989 once people on that forum realized I wasnāt a dude.
-There were internecine disputes over formatting, where people in the US banded together to create a local standard that made no sense globally, people in the EU banded together to make standards that made a little more sense globally but pissed everyone in the US off because they preferred to say āKentuckyā vs. āKYā, people in Finland created their own insular state of affairs and refused to enter a debate over site-wide standards, and everyone else around the world just glowered and waited it out.
-Then there were the geo-political warriors. There were people in Iran and Iraq who fought an online proxy war over whether the Persian Gulf should be called the Persian or the Arabian Gulf. There was some drama over the South China Sea that I never really delved into. A single man in the middle east made 200 sockpuppets to defend 20 meters worth of sand in the Sinai peninsula that defined the border between Egypt and I-forget-the-hell-who-but-it-wasnāt-even-Israel.
That got into HobbyDrama territory, but the point is: Shitshow. Always has been.
People just sort of suck. And when their natural impulses towards suckiness run up against site rules? Shit gets lost. When someone calls them out it becomes a personal grievance. The lawbreaker becomes the victim.
In the end, no one can have nice things.
Iām technically non-tech, but have a bachelors degree in a hard science. I say technically because I did learn a bit of programming and other skills because Iām of a certain age and also you sort of have to if you want to make your work life not suck.
If I can create an automation that can do something that would normally take me days or weeks? Hells yes. (+1 if itās a fun challenge and +2 if I can transfer a time-saving tool to my co-workers).
But it looks like magic (scary magic) if you donāt have that background/skill set.
Andā¦ long story shortā¦ I now work in a science-adjacent job but Iāve also gained the reputation as a ācomputer hackerā at my workplace. I appreciate how funny that is because Iām nothing of the sort! The thing is: a colleague once - in all seriousness - reported me to IT for these āhacking exploitsā that I was committing. With VBA for Excel.* Fortunately, IT laughed their asses off when they heard that one and Iāve retained my job.
- to be fair, it was a prank that I ran on her and my other colleague.
At some point, the question becomes: was the candidate too unqualified to understand what they were applying for?
I donāt mind training someone if theyāre not 100% up to speed but they also need to be capable of learning and retaining things. A lot of that means that you need a foundation based on education and on the job learning. In other words, Iām not going to teach foundational shit that you should have picked up in high school.
One memorable example: we had one applicant who claimed a high degree of competence and related experience - and although I had some doubts during the interview I was realistic about the job market and our chances of finding someone who was a perfect match. She was personable, seemed smart, and had worked in the industry. How hard would it be to train her? If she could manage to pick up even the most basic parts of the workload it would be win to hire her.
A short list of what we learned
- no bachelorās degree (our manager was livid when she found out about that one)
- no understanding of basic science (like, ātemperature is not measured as a percentageā basic science)
- a week into the job, asked when she was going to āstart doing X,ā even though the job description was āyouāre going to be doing Y and Z.ā To be fair (?), the words describing X and Y were fairly similar and you might mistake one for the other if you had a poor grasp on either of them.
Iām going to gloss over a lot of irrelevant (but horrifying) detail here. We did have one memorable conversation where she said, āIām so glad I applied for this job even though I wasnāt qualified. You never know where you can get by trying!ā
Where she eventually got was fired, but that took some time and the damage she did is still legendary. Part of that legacy of raging incompetence is that we fact-check resumes in ways that we previously did not. But the great irony is that she probably had no idea of just how unqualified she actually was. Again, the question becomes: is the candidate too unqualified to understand what they were applying for?
I have a brother who is younger than me by 6 years. Our upbringing was a bit weird. Our parents basically forbid anything that might cause them inconvenience, irritation, or expense - which was most things that might interest a kid. (No, theyāre not religious, which is the first question that everyone asks. Theyāre just raging assholes who are also a bit stupid. I canāt really explain it much beyond that.)
In addition to the manipulation and emotional abuse, they rewarded us if we informed on each other. I seldom did. Not through any great virtue or integrity of my own, but because I routinely got punished for the stupid shit he did. For instance, I didnāt tell them when our adult neighbor shot little bro with an air rifle because I knew he would catch absolute hell for being in the position of getting shot with an air rifle. Even if I didnāt catch hell about it, it was miserable to watch him get screamed at. For context on this story - we had been told to stay away from Steveās yard because Steve was a known psycho with a hatred for neighbor kids. On that glorious summer day, Steve had dropped a $5 bill on his driveway just inside the property lineā¦ and was waiting for a kid to come by and be dumb enough to try to pick it up.
I might actually tell that one at their funeral.
By contrast, bro was younger and never got any blowback if I was doing something wrong. He actually recorded me talking on the phone with a friend when I was in middle school. He picked up the other line and held one of those shitty '70s tape recorders to the earpiece. Talking on the phone was forbidden and he was collecting proof to use against me. My friend and I werenāt plotting shit, I wasnāt grounded (the concept was foreign because we were never really allowed to go out or do things like talk on the phone anyway), it was just forbidden to talk on the phone.
I could excuse it when he was eight, but he passed along ādirtā on me well into his late teens and my twenties. He was under pressure from them as well, but he basically shredded any idea of trust between us for far too many times to count. I forgot what the final straw was, but I remember thinking, āI can never confide in this person and feel trust.ā In every meaningful way, Iāve ignored him for the last 20 years.
Heās probably the least shitty thing about family gatherings, but thatās not saying much.
It really is just a matter of scale. Iāve known some evil little fuckers, but they lack the resources to commit full scale atrocities. Theyāre not employing children in hazardous conditions or selling tainted blood, but thatās only because they donāt have access to a steady supply of either.
The ethics is actually very simple. Taking those two examples:
Kids love to work if you just give them the chance. What kid wouldnāt want to go and show how they can do grownup things and at the same time make money to help their family survive? It happens all the time with family businesses. Just because Iām a wage slave means my kids canāt contribute? What kind of elitist bullshit is that?
The rest is just regulations meant to strangle the small businessman. Youāve got some pencil neck in an office somewhere who wants to stop LIFE SAVING MEDICATION from getting to people who need it. Bitter little fuck cares more about swinging his dick around and writing ālawsā than actually helping people. Most of that blood is perfectly fine but the paperwork got fucked up and sure - maybe some isnāt fine - but if you ask the guy bleeding out from a stab wound if he wants some, heāll say āYES!ā In any case, malaria will probably get the poor fucker before the AIDS does. And he probably already has the HIV anyway.
/s for those last two paragraphs because itās not an argument that Iād make, but it very much is a parallel to arguments that Iāve seen being made in real life by seemingly normal people.
And then of course people tend to operate on a spectrum of
*literally does not care
*only cares if itās happening to me
*only cares if someone else finds out (because then Iāll have to pretend I never noticed)
*cares, but not enough to lose my livelihood over it
*cares, but is really good about not thinking too hard and/or focusing on all the nice things instead of the things that probably arenāt even all that bad
*will think about quitting, but realizes that they other guys are just as bad (or worse)
*will quit and go live in a cave
Iām guessing that youāre some combination of ānot poorā and ānot from the US.ā
Iām no longer poor, but I do travel through the continental US on a regular basis. Even though my workplace reimburses me for food when I travel and budget doesnāt enter into the equation, I eat fast food fairly frequently.
Scenario A) Iāve been though a series of planes, airports, and rental cars for the last eight hours. Iām in central Iowa, Iāve just checked into my hotel, and thereās a major winter storm 30 minutes away. Non-fast food takeout isnāt an option because this town has 20,000 people in it and I would need to travel for an hour to find a larger town. I could find a nice local restaurant, but thereās an Arbyās thatās a block away from my hotel. Since my priorities are 1) putting some warm food into my face, 2) not driving through snow, and 3) going to sleep, itās Arbyās.
Scenario B) Iām driving back home from Chicago, which is about a 7-hour trip by interstate highway. Iām in the scary part of Indiana when I realize that Iām hungry and still hours away from civilization. Food options are a) fast food and b) truck stop food. That last option is basically āunknown fast food with an unreadable label thatās been sitting in a heated tray for 4 hours.ā
Scenario C) Iām in a small southern city that Iāve never visited. My plane was delayed and my luggage is lost. The rental agency couldnāt find the car that I had reserved, so Iām driving a lifted pickup through dark and unfamiliar streets. By the time I finish shopping for some basic overnight things (deodorant, hairbrush, underclothing for the next day), itās 9:45 and most nearby restaurants are closing. Five Guys is a block from the hotel and because they close at 10, I can either choose that or try finding and walking to a restaurant thatās open later.
Those are all examples from this year. Basically, takeout options outside of major cities are horrible. In small cities, most places - if they even exist - close earlier than fast food chains. If I have the time and energy Iāll absolutely find the nicest local restaurant and enjoy some regional cuisine. And under normal travel circumstances, thatās exactly what I do. But sometimes you just need to put warm food into your mouth and get to sleep.
Top two picks from each row:
- McDonalds is a standard, but I prefer Arbyās seasoned curly fries
- Wendyās recently changed their fries and theyāre good enough, but prefer Smash fries.
- (Special mention goes to Canadian KCF, which offers fries and gravy instead of mashed potatoes and gravy. I donāt know if their US fries are different because I donāt mess with that if mashed 'taters are an option.)
- Five guys and Checkers
- Steak 'n Shake and Popeyes
Overall, if I were choosing a place based solely on the fries: Smash > Five Guys > Popeyes > Arbyās
The top two spots were tricky. I like the 5 guys fresh cut style, but Smash mixes a traditional thin cut fast food fry with rosemary. And they donāt make things weird by giving you more than you can or should eat.
The only one I actively dislike is Chick-fil-A, but some of the other offerings are āmehā enough that they need ketchup.
Missing entries: Penn Station and Skyline. Theyāre both regional, but I like both of them over most of the other offerings. Penn Station has fresh-cut style and Skylineās fries are thin and crispy.
Youāre making a great point about Facebook. Itās still insanely popular among older and more rural Americans. I guess these are populations that would be more isolated without it and still see the value in participating. One example: I have a 21 year old niece who is on it 24/7, but then again she is a hourās drive from the nearest Walmart and and her parents. Three hundred miles from her bestie. Sheās two-thousand-ish miles away from me. She has my number, but she prefers Messenger to text.
Itās also good for community groups, online garage sales, in memoriam pages, and the like. Some businesses like to use it instead of having a proper website, probably due to zero cost of hosting and familiarity of use.*
Reddit never fit naturally with any of those, but Iām sure it will find a niche of users in the same way.
*Iām sure there are other dynamics worldwide where Facebook might also be a valuable tool. These are just the first few examples I can think of in the US.
I hope those comment links work. They suggest creating your own niche magazine, nurturing it through the early stages, then handing over mod duties to others who might be more comfortable in the role.
I saw that someone did that here with my favorite sub. I made a post just to show that there is interest in the topic and to hopefully invite more engagement.
I think what youāre doing so far is key. And itās really the hard part. The rest is just being a friendly place.
No one wants to be one of those 5 people howling into the void when something is getting started, but it needs to be done to demonstrate that people are willing to participate. You might also consider posting easy polls or open ended questions to invite engagement. (If you havenāt)
Same. The worst it got was āthis is fakey mcfakerson!ā (And those evaluations were usually pretty spot on).
I genuinely liked Reddit after unsubbing from almost all of the defaults. Iāll miss HobbyDrama, a few others that were just really chill, and my local city sub. (But for some reason, being subbed to r/indianapolis meant that the algorithm thought youād really enjoy r/desmoins and r/houston. Incompetence.)
I created an account about 24 hours ago and this is actually better than I expected. Of course, I wasnāt expecting a complete and polished interface from something so new, but I had read plenty of horror stories about how lemmy/kbin signups were impossibly complex.
I like it. Itās already pretty intuitive and I like that itās not a 1:1 Reddit clone. I can easily imagine this expanding and growing into something really interesting
Also, I got the username I wanted.
I can talk about a similar (karma-like) system on another site. It was a wiki-style site popular from 2006-2010.
Their original system counted a userās creations and edits. There was the expected amount of drama around who had more creations vs edits. Creators tended to add a lot of high volume but low effort crap. Editors would get a lot of grief over āstealingā entries because the idiots who created the site put the username of the last editor at the bottom of the entry.
It got worse.
Around 2008 the idiots reimagined the site and expanded the scope. They kept the shitty idea of keeping the last editorās username, but they added a points system tied to how many new features were added. For example: if you added a town you were awarded 1 point, but if you added a street or river you were awarded 1 point for each kilometer of road or river. Shit got real weird.
It was a race towards crap. AngrySteve59 was no longer at the top of the list. He was replaced by GamerJoe84 who had racked up shit points using the new system.
Points just seem to make people crazy. āRate me! Evaluate my workā - Lisa Simpson