On one hand, I support a strong robots.txt being in place. It keeps data from being used by honest engines (though what constitutes “honesty” varies). But at the same time, indexing and caching is how we can grow. If you want the site to grow, you want to get it to 1st position on first SERP.
It’s a tricky balance.
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There’s still chaos in terms of instances and softwares. Until we all settle on one software that does the job, and until we have a way to have a single community again, Reddit remains the superior option. There is only one r/RPG, it works on Highlander rules - there can be only one. How many groups in the Fediverse named m/RPG or c/RPG are there? Why must each user be forced to answer that question?
That’s what would fix things for me; make the federation 100% behind-the-curtain so that I don’t have to think about it. I don’t care about the backend, I’m not hosting, the value to me is ad views only, not cash. I’d argue a solid 80% of users on corp-owned social media wouldn’t understand even if you simplify it. The fediverse/threadiverse is not a drop-in replacement for Reddit. Until it is, I’ll keep one foot in spez’s yard. If Meta’s Threads product does become an ActivityPub community and solves this issue, I’ll move there
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What issues have you specifically noticed with this?
The issue I’ve noticed first and foremost is that there is more than one identically named group. Don’t tell me that rpg@kbin.social, rpg@lemmy.ml, and rpg@foo.bar are different communities. They’re identically named communities. I’d rather have as false positive of a gun user’s instance with threads about rocket-propelled grenades, rather than having to go to each group to browse. Don’t tell me to just use the “subscribed” view. That doesn’t pick up everything in a topic, nor does it help me to find those - again, identically named - communities on other servers. Whenever a new server comes online with an RPG community, they’ll be in their own corner. They can participate as foreigners with another group, but that’s not theirs. There’s no central place for hosting these communities. If there was a server set up just to host groups, and the rest were for users, that would make sense. I immediately grew tired, trying to find all of the communities related to my interests so I can subscribe to all. I did that back in the day, joining forums and setting up a personal homepage with frames. In theory anyone can join any group, but they have to find it first.
If devs and leaders of the ActivityPub community are going to continue pushing the idea that everyone can talk to everyone else, we absolutely need some form of community merging for identically-named communities. For instance, a kbin.social user should be able to subscribe to cooking and see posts from cooking@*.* , not just cooking@kbin.social. That’s a UX issue just as much as a technical one.
I wasn’t around this far back. Can you elaborate on this a bit? What’s the issue with “having mail on three or four non-multiplexed BBSes” ?
Back in those days, BBS mail was less “email” and more “text stored on server”. To get all of your mail from multiples, you had to connect to each of the servers in sequence, download your mail, and then read it offline and reply (any good BBS software would remember where itwas from, and offer to call back and send each message). Multiplexing meant that you could have a BBS in the NYC area, it would be able to contact and download from one in, say, PA or wherever, and they could each download threads and messages, aka federated content. The pain has been massively reduced over time, and I’m glad. My next point bounces off yours:
This I remember well. Sounds like you are trying to create an account on each instance and are constantly logging out of one and into the next to keep up on the latest posts and comments. This … is not really the way to do it.
You’re right, except in cases where I want a different psudonymity; my choice. In this case, I can’t check for new posts in, continuing with the same example, rpg@*.* without checking the group from each federated server. Posts are neither mirrored nor transcluded. That’s the point I’m getting at. I should be able to just open up m/rpg and have it cover all compatible groups.
Don’t confuse terms. kbin.social is an instance, the platform is kbin the software.
Actually it’s well understood that kbin.social is getting too large and it’s not good for instances to get this big in general - so it’s kinda a good thing that other instances haven’t exploded as much. See https://kbin.social/m/RedditMigration/t/122067/Jim-is-invading-the-finer-things-club-aka-kbin-social-is and
I disagree with your latter point. kbin.social has hit a reasonable mass of users to have a strong local community and become a platform unto itself, running on kbin software. I’m not interested in a smaller community. I joined Reddit because it was the largest single-site community on the Web. I want the monolithic community, and I accept the costs that incurs, including ads or ad-first design. Right now, the fediverse is just fragments at the foot of the tower of Babel, each speaking a separate tongue, even if some are intelligible to others.
I don’t care about the difference between Mastodo, kbin, & Lemmy. They’re web software which are trying to replace a monolith, and have seen imited success. I don’t care about political leanings. I’m talking about a UX issue. If you want to defed from a site, and receive no more content, then so be it, that’s the right of an Admin.
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You and I will have to agree to disagree on this. Yes, active users continues to grow - on already dominant platforms. And by that I mean KBin.social as a platform, not all KBin instances; or Mastodon.Social, or even Lemmy.ML. Yes, there’s not a singularity yet, but even this limited plurality shows that it’s a pain in the neck to deal with the Fediverse as a whole, so pick your local poison and go for it.
Frankly, you’re incorrect. It’s an incredible pain in the neck to try and deal with the Fediverse beyond local content. Without better community merging or centralization, browsing instances becomes no different than dealing with having mail on three or four non-multiplexed BBSes, or talking on forums before we had tabbed browsing. It’s incredibly annoying, and pushes people right back to centralized systems.
Given that I’m more willing to be a Net Nomad than I am to pay, Reddit 2.0 would have to be self-funding and profitable early on without my direct contribution. I think the best way to do it would be to have per-IP monthly access limits, raised incrementally by tracked linkout clicks from the platform (with a higher rate given for actual conversion actions). That way, you keep operating costs low and ensure that you’re profit-focused from day 1. Yes, it’s an affiliate ad platform from the start, but it allows for organic content generation from users. Oh, and of course advertisers would be charged to create organic ads in relevant communities. Obviously, with a priority being profit and cost, any software would have to be NIH FOSS, with only a few custom scripts ever created by the devs - this cuts down on costs and dev time. If anyone complains about licensing, ban them. If they try taking you to court, you have ad rev, they don’t. You win with a better lawyer and sympathetic judge.
Basically, I would want Reddit as it is today. Or Facebook as it is. The advertising I can block easily is their way of keeping my costs at a rate I’m willing to accept - $0.00/lifetime. I think forcing ad engagement will make some people run to the Fediverse and host their own instance, or join and “donate to” (pay to use) an instance they don’t host, but for others, it will help them to build healthier relationships with social media, using it less and thus rationing out their time better, or they’ll spend time engaged with ad content and providing real value to the platform, rather than imagined “value” by creating organic content that will need to be stored and indexed on the server.
No, what I want is r/RPG - a single, central hub for RPG-related topics. Yes, there are also subs for RPGDesign, DnD, DM advice, etc., but RPG serves as both a central community and as a hub for all those more specific groups. There is no way to have a “hub community” on the Fediverse, or to efficiently find all groups which share interests. Groups which had a “largest community” on Reddit will now find themselves shattered and separated. Sure, you can say Federation will save them, but it really won’t. All federation means is that now instead of one community, there’s one per server, and you have to know to subscribe to each and every one of them.
Sure, there’s Mastodon’s Lists feature, which works like a Multireddit, but that’s honestly a lot of effort, and doesn’t cover Lemmy or kbin posts like this one. We need a way to automerge common communities, at least in the user’s view.
Sure, just show me the combined DnD/D&D or TTRPG community | magazine | group. It doesn’t exist. There are a hundred, or a thousand, individual groups. That’s not a whole community. That’s a thousand fractal shards, each one with its own voices, independent of one another. Yes, occasionally they do share content or users, but that happens only rarely and with effort. TTRPG Network, Lemmy.ML, KBin.Social, Mastodon.Social, etc., all have various groups dedicated to RPGs. These groups are not able to be combined.
The inability of these groups to combine and independently organizing is a severe weakness of ActivityPub.
The more that happens, the more fractured the community becomes, and the easier it will be for a new centralized corporate platform to suck up users. That’s how Reddit started in the first place, and how Twitter started. Heck, it’s even how LJ started. You look at fractured elements of communities, and build a site for the whole community to come together.
I don’t think it’s going to be “singular bad actors” in this case. I think it’s going to be every server owner realizing why the situation became what it is on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and Reddit. When operating and development costs stretch beyond the grasp of donations, when the number of users far outstretches the number of donors and customers, server owners will have to seek out ways to monetize users. So, sure, you’ll have people who are willing to put in the investment to launch their own server and federate as they see fit, rather than pay for the service. But you’ll have a lot more people who are unwilling to pay.
That means ads and paid content. That means login walls and paywalled content, “premium” access and features, etc. I expect that every large Fediverse server will end up that way. Either that or the way they’ll stay ad-free is to kick off the users and keep only the paying customers (these people will be called “donors” so they don’t expect any benefit for their money). After all, kicking a user out of one instance of the Fediverse doesn’t have the impact that it does on Reddit. Heck, kicking a thousand out doesn’t. There’s every other instance’s customers and users still to talk with. There’s always the ability for those people to invest in the platform with their own instance, or join one with a smaller number of allowed (non-paying) users.
The “corpo drones” in this case are people willing to follow the directions from Reddit/Advance Media, but not get paid.