Anti-Leninists, what is something you'd like to tell tankies that we actually never heard?

@chobeat@lemmy.ml

Mass society in the West doesn’t exist anymore. You’re unfit to achieve anything you want to achieve and you lack the tools to elaborate to yourself why you keep losing. The world moved on and so should your politics.

@MarxMadness@lemmygrad.ml

Your idea is that… any politics with roots in the 20th century are irrelevant?

When exactly did everyone on the planet wake up and decide history doesn’t matter?

@chobeat@lemmy.ml

History does matter. In the same way mass parties wouldn’t have worked in 15th century Europe, they won’t work now. Learning history is useful to understand how entire system of thought and action survived way past their relevance, doomed and incapable of understanding their own demise.

@MarxMadness@lemmygrad.ml

How are you defining mass parties?

When did they stop working, and why?

@chobeat@lemmy.ml

Both questions would deserve a book each to really answer, but I will try.

How are you defining mass parties? Relatively large participatory base, strategy decided democratically, presence on the local territory and ties with communities. Here though I was more framing them as “parties designed for a mass society”, where their strategy relies on the possibility to reduce the individual to mass, as in the case of workers parties. A one-size-fits-all organization, where one strategy, one identity and one theory of change is shared by millions of people.

When did they stop working, and why?

There are at least two big elements: the first is the end of mass society. Once we became all individuals, the mechanism of identification in a collective entity became harder. It got even harder over time, when most young people have no examples or memory of anybody around them ever acting collectively.

The second element is informational: mass parties are incredibly slow. The analysis-synthesis-action-assessment most ML parties are based on is predicated on the assumption that the social and political phenomena you’re working with don’t change too fast and between the analysis phase and the action phase, the underlying phenomenon is relatively stable. If the analysis is too slow or the phenomenon (i.e. specific industries, specific political landscapes, etc etc) change too fast, your analysis is always late. Correct, but useless. This renders anybody involved in such ecosystems (not just mass parties), very aware of the motivations of their own failure, but completely incapable of escaping them.

@Thebigguy@lemmy.ml

Lenin was a mushroom

Tankie is a broad term. Are u just an idealist commie or do u legitimately support genocidal regimes?

I would like you to look into the commonalities in teaching methods between your beliefs/community, religion, neo Nazis, and ideological indoctrination in general. Look at the classic applications such as redefining meanings of words, the complete denial of descenting opinions simply because they are descenting, the belief in something greater than oneself etc etc.

I would like you to write down your most fundamental beliefs then right down your best argument for those beliefs then I want you to write you best argument to disprove that belief.

I would like you to come up with as many contradictions within your own ideology as possible without rationalising that contradictory belief to yourself.

I’d like u to read nineteen eighty four and then write an argument how the practice’s of big brother have been used to indoctrinate you. Then right an argument against that argument.

I’m not here to tell you how to live or what to think I’d just like you to legitimately challenge your own thoughts to the best of your ability.

Good luck on your journey to becoming a free thinker.

@Thebigguy@lemmy.ml

Meh if you want a good critique of the Bolsheviks by somebody who actually was an old Bolshevik check out the book We instead.

@u_die_for_elmer@lemm.ee

Lennin’s “state and revolution” and accepting China as a communist country are in conflict with each other. Most tankies or “Marxist-Lenninist” are distorting both Marx and Lennin. Communism in one country can not exists for long without a global overthrow of the capitalist class. Yes, the state in these various countries control the economy more or less, but who controls the state? My assertion, and most other Trotskyists, is that its not the workers.

Cowbee [he/they]

Socialism in one country is certainly possible, Communism must be global. This has always been the case, and historical practice affirms this. The Trotskyist assertion needs to actually be backed by analysis, in the time of Trotsky support for Permanent Revolution came because of a lack of faith in the Peasantry, such issues are not the same in the PRC and moreover the Peasantry has been shown to authentically align with the Proletariat.

@yet_another_commie@lemmygrad.ml

We addressed this point on Prolewiki: https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/People's_Republic_of_China#Abandoning_of_Marxism/Capitalist_restoration

https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/People's_Republic_of_China#Democracy_and_popular_opinion

China is actually a democracy

Anti-Leninists, what is something you'd like to tell tankies that we actually never heard?

Anti-Leninists, what is something you'd like to tell tankies that we actually never heard?

Asklemmy