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Sounds like the way the US is going to me.
There’s a new country to add to this list from this year.
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A good faith argument kind of presupposes that all people constantly objectively question their convictions. And I don’t think we humans do that. We’re very happy with the way we think. And very capable of holding opposing viewpoints at the same time.
It is easy to be caught up in jingoistic fervor. It’s easy not to register all the incremental changes that go against your ideals. It’s easy to overlook atrocities that are committed “by your team, for the cause.” It only takes mental gymnastics we’re perfectly capable of as a species.
And the US isn’t? The US doesn’t exactly have a stellar record either, so if you think the US is some bastion of human rights you haven’t. been. paying. attention. And if you think LGBT rights are safe from that you’re delusional.
And that’s not even considering the many, many atrocities and war crimes the US has committed and continues to commit overseas (Yup, that’s a ChinaDaily link - if you believe US media reports about Chinese human rights violations then you must be willing to give the Chinese media the same courtesy about US violations, right?) So my advice to you is to hold on to that smug sense of US human rights superiority for as long as you can, cause once the illusion fades you’re in for a rough time.
OP said jack shit about the US.
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Why do you post this spam on lemmy.ml? You are obsessed about “tankies”, China bad, the usual…
You’ll find more support for your beliefs in a more right wing place like lemmy.world.
‘Tankies’ always side with the right
How funny you think it is that lemmy.world is right wing, shows just how brainwashed you are. Is blahaj.zone also right wing? They also don’t tolerate tankie apologia either, as evident from the fact they do indeed block lemmygrad and hexbear.
Anyone who dislikes china and russia is Right wing to you eh?
Man we both think the other is brainwashed, and we won’t convince each other to change our entire beliefs in one or several posts, that’d be impossible.
I just don’t get why you don’t post this in an instance more aligned with your views.
I’ll probably crosspost it later. Don’t want to make too many posts too quickly.
Of course it’s right-wing, lemmy.world is literally just a liberal hub LOL, its no different than reddit’s awful default subs.
Are you for censorship or against it?
I am anti-censorship within reason. Hate speech and bigotry are big No-Nos and the people who perpatrate them are harmful to the rest, especially vulnerable groups. What? You were expecting me to say some pro-trump freeze peach bullshit? China and Russia Censorship is not equal to banning bigots.
Do you believe that poverty is a moral issue?
There’s nothing redeemable about Russia’s oligarchic regime. People who do support it are either excited about doing right wing bigotry, or providing peasant-brained support for the idea of having feudal lords that will supposedly protect them.
As much as I hate the authoritarian regime in China, at least they have achieved meaningful outcomes for many of their people and seem to be investing in a long-term plan to continue that momentum.
As others have expressed on this thread, it’s important to apply your righteous sense of justice to the US as well. When you do, you will start to realize that we’ve been an unspeakably damaging force for both the wellbeing of our own people, and people globally. As an American, I can tell you that it’s quite a shock to wake up from decades of programming and realize the scale of violence my own country has perpetuated.
I think it is a thing of “the lesser evil”, A “seemingly” lesser evil. Those who are critical of the US and the West, like my father, tend to overlook the evils of rival powers, the same goes the other way around.
The thing is, the alternative, seeing all great powers for what they are: equally deplorable evils (as I do), is fucking depressing. It makes you think there’s no hope because the world is at the mercy of the biggest pieces of shit ever, a war between Monsters and Demons.
How can someone support them in good faith? I’ll focus on China, but here are some reasons:
For starters, I don’t believe that it’s possible to impose on a society from the outside to accept LGBTQ people. For example, making LGBTQ acceptance as a precondition on having good relations with China has literally 0% chance of improving life of LGBTQ people there. It’s more likely to backfire. On the other hand, having good relations, and allowing cultural exchange to happen naturally, can - and I think, over the last few decades before relations soured, has - improved LGBTQ acceptance there.
Also, amongst superpowers, China has a relatively good track record when in comes to using military force. They have had conflicts with neighboring countries, but it’s nothing compared to the wars the US or Russia (and USSR) have fought.
Finally (this one I don’t share, but I think it can be held in good faith), someone might not care about human rights all that much. For example, if you consider government-sponsored murders to be just the same as any other - not better, but also not worse - then even if you include Tienanmen Square and other murders by the government, the murder rate in China is still lower than most of the world.
Why do you put Russia and China together in the first place? There is nothing in common. Do you think the USSR is still there and communists support the government? We only have critical support for Russia in its counter imperialism. There may be an end to it soon though, I don’t know
People support not countries but their beliefs about those countries. And people maintain their beliefs, ignoring not fitting facts.
Donno man, China seems a lot better right now than US at least.
Not saying that either should be supported though^^
Most of Putin’s supporters are anti-gay. You’re not asking “How can anyone support Russia?” — you’re really asking “How can anyone who is pro-gay support Russia?”
That’s one act of violence with 300-2700 deaths from 36 years ago. That’s much less violence than other great powers. Do you support ANY large/powerful country?
Yeah, I got questions about Tienanmen, but not the same ones. Like was the CIA involved in the counter protest outside the school campus?
Also, there is searchable queer content on RedNote, the app own by the CCP
Queerphobia is slightly less of a problem in China than in Russia but it is harder for LGBTQ people there, especially trans people to get affirming care.
Harder? Being queer and unhoused can be pretty damn bad in the states. In China your boss might say something bad but you don’t have to worry about being homeless.
A core tenet of Liberalism is that money/income is exempt from moralistic judgement. A country that lets their poor suffer homelessness isn’t ‘bad’; a country that doesn’t have Gay Pride marches is.
It’s how they pinkwash countries like Israel and the USA
That is the definition of liberalism but that is not the loved experience of unhoused people in the USA. If you are unhoused there are a lot of moral judgements that come along with that.
And it was much harder in the 90s in the US than it is now. Gay bashing was still pretty common. Change takes time. The direction of change is at least as important. It’s obvious that Russia and China are changing in diametrically opposite direction from one another. Go on see for yourself on Red Note, plenty of gay and lesbian content there.
Same can be said for quality of life as well. Russian’s life expectancy has been declining (not even accounting for the war), and so has their purchasing power and disposable income. Chinese citizen on the other hand are clearly benefiting from the system in which they evolve.
There are certainly things one can be critical about, but just discarding the whole of China and its system as a failure and counter to human wellbeing is pure copium and western exceptionalism.
You are yet another disingenuous liar.
While western countries are restricting youth access to HRT, China is establishing a clinic dedicated to providing HRT to trans Chinese teens?
More trans people are killed in the west than in China or Russia
Tell me about them Pride parades and gender clinics in Russia. If I’m such a liar and these countries are such a bastion of LGBTQ rights tell me about how Russia affirms and protects LGBTQ people. So far it seems they’ve banned people from talking about it or displaying symbols of it, and they make it very hard to access treatment, plus there’s a fair amount of social stigma and violence.
“the gays” in Russia:
Gay Russians are like a former head of the NKVD who allowed massive, unfounded arrests of innocents?
Interesting analogy.
90% of manufacturing is done in China, India and other (formerly) poor countries. You’re paying 50p for plastic tat, £1 for a t-shirt and all the other slave labour. That’s something that USA,UK, Germany have been offshoring since the 1950s. Western countries and China heavily locked together for mutual success.
When you talk about how to support countries, what exactly do you mean? Why we continue to do business with these countries? Pride symbols didn’t even exist until 1990s.
Also if you want people to be more liberal you have to educate and share with them. It won’t happen by boycotting people. Russia is the perfect example of that.
You could say the same for Palestine and yet a lot of the same people who criticise China and Russia love to praise Palestine…
I think a lot more of it is based on either who is the aggressor or a deep rooted hatred of the west depending on whether or not you’re a tankie
There’s a world of difference between supporting the liberation of Palestine and praising it. I don’t think anyone is under the illusion that it’s a great place to live, but that doesn’t mean I want them to be murdered.